Landmark Forum – I Wanted A Refund, I Got A Mindfuck
“Hello. Landmark Education. This is Alexia, how may I help you?”
“Hi Alexia, how are you?”
“Good. How are you?”
“Good. My name is Jones Brixton. I’m registered to do the Landmark Forum advanced course next weekend, and I want a refund.”
“Ochay, sure,” there was some sounds of clambering with the phone. “So what makes you think you want a refund?”
“I signed up to do it after I did the Landmark Forum. I felt like most everything I learnt in the Landmark Forum was stuff I already knew. I thought that the advanced course might be stuff that I hadn’t learnt yet, but as soon as I read the curriculum, I felt disappointed. It held no appeal for me. Then hearing people talk about what they learnt in the advanced course, I just didn’t see the point of it. And also I have $3000 credit card debt, so I feel my $800 could be put to better use elsewhere.”
“Ochay.” They all pronounce “Okay” as if it were a German word. “I got it! A large part of the advanced course is about your act. Your act is like your personality type that you’ve had since you were very young, that keeps you from feeling fulfilled. All your negative associations, and your masks to cover up your true self.
“Now, some people – not saying this is you -” That’s precisely what she was saying. “- some people have an ‘I know better’ act. So when they come in to do the Landmark Forum, they don’t get much out of it, but as soon as they start the advanced course, it all hits them at once.”
“Okay. I did the Landmark Forum. One of the main reasons I did it was because I wanted to know what was holding me back from finish my novel. It didn’t shed any light on that. In the end, I don’t think it matters how many courses I do – I think I just have to take responsibility for myself, and just do it.”
“Ochay, yes. The Landmark Forum teaches you responsibility. But just knowing that you have to be responsible doesn’t help you. You have to know how to put it into action. That’s where your act comes in. Your act is at the root of everything you do. You can’t see your act now – trying to see your act would be like trying to see the backs of your own eyeballs. So in the advanced course, we get to the bottom of your act and we create a new one.”
“I’ve done that already!”
She laughed “Maybe I was wrong about you being an ‘I know better’.” I laughed too.
I said “The reason I think that I’ve heard the stuff from the Landmark Forum before – while it was very good – the reason I’ve heard it is because I’ve studied, and actively pursued new paths to get knowledge, and -” I was going to continue, but suddenly I felt acutely aware that what I was saying could be construed as justifying myself. “- yeah.” She was judging me. I stopped talking.
“I got it!” Do you really. “By taking the advanced course, you can get to the core of who you are, so you can be free of your past and create a new act. That way, you can get on and be successful in your life.” And you won’t be doomed to failure, as you will without the Landmark Forum.
“Well, that’s a very clever sales pitch.”
“You can say that, but calling it a sales pitch is a very effective way of rationalising it so that you won’t have to face the truth.” The truth being that you should give the Landmark Forum your money. “You called me expecting to get a sales pitch. You’re seeing everything I’m saying through a filter.”
“No, I didn’t really have expectations. But here you are trying to convince me to not get the refund.”
“I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m simply -”
“Yes you are. Yes you are. Yes, you are!”
She stopped for half a second, and continued, without refuting what I’d said. “Jones, don’t think that calls like this aren’t routine. We expect calls like this to come through. People start getting nervous about what they might have to face in the advanced course, and they start looking for an easy way out. I can give you a refund – that’s fine. But is that really what you want? You seem very uncertain.”
All of a sudden, I felt very uncertain. I said “Let me think.”
I paused for a minute. One whole minute. I sat there in silence trying to find the essence of me, that still small voice that never leads me into folly. Out of all the high pressure situations I’ve been in, in my life, this would probably rank top three. I just can’t explain how weird it was. The leader of my Landmark seminar series would later try to explain to me that it was some kind of mistake, that maybe Alexia had been in a bad mood. But no, you don’t get mindfuck skills like this by mistake. This was well-trained ingrained, precise mindfuck shit. It was a work of art, really. You don’t do it like this just because you’re in a bad mood. This was much worse than a bad mood. It was a torrent of emotionless pressure, consistently applied until your mind broke. I felt pressure to be the ball of reactions that she expected me to be. It was fucked. It was brilliant.
There’s a rule in sales for the silent close. “Jones? Are you still there?” First one to speak, loses.
“Yes, I’m still here. I’m just thinking.”
“Okay… So what do you want to do?”
“I want my money back.”
“Okay… All but $110 is refundable. The charge will be reversed onto your credit card. Is there anything else?”
“Yes. You keep saying that I’m interpreting everything you’re saying. I think it’s the other way around. Good bye.”
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Comments (52)
If you are that upset I would ask for all your money back. They will give it to you. I would also send an email to Chuck Palahniuk. He says that he wrote fight club following doing the Landmark Forum.
http://chuckpalahniuk.net/
Before you write the whole thing off, you might want to ask him why he still talks about it when he is interviewed.
Either way. Good Luck with your writing.
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hah yeah i heard that about palahniuk. for the record, i’m not writing the whole thing off, and i’m not upset.
i just think there’s something not right about an organisation that will teach you self-help principles, only to use them to manipulate you into buying their products later. up until i had this conversation about the refund, i heard about the hard sales they did, and i thought to myself “well, it’s a business, they have to make money.” after this conversation i realised no one was exaggerating about how bad the hard sell was – in fact, they had understated it.
i talked to my landmark forum seminar leader about the conversation, and he said “ochay, so you had that conversation – can you see that you made it mean that the landmark forum is bad?”
i said “yes, i see that i made it mean that. and i continue to make it mean that.”
he seemed to think that that was sufficient reason for me to go back there. i disagreed. to me, it seemed like (and i know this is an extreme example), say a man deliberately plotted to kill you, and started executing his plan, and you associate negative feelings with that man. you made it mean that he was a bad man. that was your interpretation of it, not actually what happened. you recognise that it was just your interpretation. so should you go and make friends with that guy? hell fucking no! that is to say: i wouldn’t, but then maybe it’s just a matter of opinion.
however i would never tell anyone that they shouldn’t do the landmark forum if they were considering it. i believe they have a lot of important stuff to teach.
the friend that referred me to landmark is going to do the advanced course at some time in the future. they keep ringing him every week to try to get him on board RIGHT NOW. they say he has to get on so he can remove all his rackets (his negative mental associations for non-graduates). he said his main racket is wanting to do more and more self-help courses when actually he has everything he needs to succeed. they didn’t know what to say to that.
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i know i’ve said this before, but i just can’t stress enough how weird this experience is. i tried my hardest to communicate that in the story, but i don’t think i properly conveyed it… but geez. it was so fucking weird. anyone that knows me or reads my blog knows that i’ve been in some weird situations – this was weirder. a lot weirder.
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Kurt – the LF “scared” the f**k out of me. What scared me? The fact that I discovered that I was one of the most righteous people around. Like my dad, always trying to have it all under control, the wife, the job, the kids, etc. The “scary” part was, I was never really present to the impact of that righteousness until about a year and a half after the Landmark Forum. I signed up for the Advanced Course too – and did the EXACT same routine – got all my money back.
I then hit an ALL-TIME low – without going into details about what I did – after the Forum for about a year and a half, and couldn’t realize why the Forum didn’t phase me anymore and I was back to my old self.
At one point I felt like I just wanted to scare everything that can be scared out of me, so I went skydiving. It was scary as s**t.
Then I did the Advanced Course and realized the big joke of who’s responsible for everything that happened or got created in my life, what’s real, versus what’s b.s., etc.
Sounds all “logical” and “common sense” – until you do the AC – it doesn’t matter.
It was one of the most liberating experiences I’ve had in my life. And I was more scared of doing the AC than skydiving. Then I said, f**k it – the worse that can happen is I will die after the AC, an unlikely event.
So I was ok with dying and I went and did it.
What happened afterwards is what you’d call enlightenment…. My identity was shred into bits, and I got to a state of nothingness that some say takes years to achieve through meditation, bla bla. Well, you can have it in 2 weekends if u do the LF+the AC…. Zen, like you won’t f-in believe, if you OPEN your ears and LISTEN for the gold – the gold being, that who you THINK you are is a god damned reflection of mommy and daddy, an outgrowth of their b.s. stories, and their b.s. identities…..
And then you turn around, and LAUGH your ass off at your entire life.
It doesn’t get more Zen than that. You will LIGHTEN up after the AC, to the point where you dont care if you die the same die. And really and honestly? YOU DONT KNOW if you will die. At any point. But you fear it inauthentically anyway….. Why? Cause you’re human. That’s why. KNOWING this makes no difference. Experiencing it does.
C’est la vie.
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that’s cool.. thanks for sharing that.
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omg >_< Advancedcoursegrad…= faahrreeaaak
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Landmark is nothing more than a money marketing pyramid scheme. The people who say they feel great and they’ve experienced things they never have before can easily obtain this without shelling out $440 to $800. I’ve talked to many people in and out of the forum, researched the company myself and actually been to a “graduation.” Their mind tactics are laughable to say the least. Some people I know can’t see through the smoke screens but I can happily say I can. Landmark as your blog says continues to bug you over and over and for what? The main thing they were after the whole time, money. Yes their is self-help, yes it’s an LGAT but they use that as scapegoats for the REAL goal, money. I’m glad this experience happened to you because you have first hand knowledge of what these people are like. I know the Landmarkians(as I like to call them) will come here defending Landmark but for every person that does their will be someone to criticize them and rightfully so.
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you’re one person that would benefit greatly from participating in the landmark forum.
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Hey Kurt,
I just wanted to say, that I’ve just got off from the phone from the Landmark people and have to say the conversation I had with them, was almost word-for-word to what happened with you. It’s left me frazzled to say the least! All I wanted was to transfer the course I was booked in for to another weekend! The conversation got to the point where the girl was asking me if I’d read the health warnings and if I was maybe experiencing some of them – in other words – I’m nuts! All I wanted was to change my course date, because something had come up. I don’t see no harm in that! I’m now considering not doing it at all. I felt bullied and pressured in a big way and that they were going against what they preached! It turned me off completely.
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wow. so she implied that you were psychotic or something? i don’t see how that’s going to get many customers.
strange, strange people.
they left a voicemail for me months ago, saying i could get a full refund. i haven’t called them back yet because i just don’t want to talk to them. even listening to the voicemail made my skin crawl.
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I respect that you made a clear decision in the end to get your money back. However, at first I thought that you were writing what you wrote as a kind of in depth look into the mind of someone who refuses to get it.
I have done heaps of self development, and none of it in paid courses. I learned long ago that if you want to learn something new, then you don’t go into a course with your head full of what you already know. It was hard for me to do that, but I commited to “try it on” and take the point of view that whatever I thought I believed, was not the truth. As a result, I got a lot out of it. If you listen very badly and interpret everything to mean what you want it to mean, it is easy to convince yourself that you already know something.
It isn’t about proving to yourself or others that you already know a lot and don’t need help. If that is the case, then just finish your book.
I too am an author. it isn’t always easy to find the motivation, but if you apply declarations and the four pillars (learned from the seminar series) then you will finish it. No compromising.
Please take this as useful, rather than offensive, but “Get out of your head, and get into your life.”
Before someone says that I am biassed or brain washed, I will just say that I think there are many things with Landmark that I believe could be done better, from reminder phone calls, marketing etc. and some of the teaching emphasis. One of the problems that happens is that when they call people, they often talk to everyone as if they are a graduate of the LF and a graduate that really “got it”. Sometimes they need to listen better to who they are dealing with rather than just assuming that the person is offering themselves to be coached.
I just did the new advanced course and it was great. There are some things that I think could have been done better, but I won’t mention them here.
Good luck.
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i think you guys read the first couple of paragraphs and assume this is standard landmark-bashing tripe and react accordingly. i just wrote what happened.
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This cult needs to be stopped, my partner did it, it has destroyed her, like that comment above, advanced course = freeeeeeeeaaaakk, our relationship is falling apart because they have brainwashed her into hounding me to do it, i have said i would slit my wrists before letting this cult wreck my life and distort my mind which to me seems to be working in perfect order, i am intelligent, run my own successful internet business and i know something evil when i see it.
They asked to speak on to my 7 yo son on the phone last night, i was in the office and unaware that they spoke to him till later that evening, he told me they said to him, Looking forward to seeing you in Sydney, do you know what commitment means Christian?, its like a promise, and we don’t break promises do we?” i am currently investigating Legal action, not over the fact that they have destroyed the family union by brainwashing my wife, (something i tried to stop by inundating her with facts from the internet, but had her brainwashed best friend that had just completed the forum working against me), but because they have commenced implementing their dirty tactics on a short phone conversation with a 7yo minor, and that the legal age is 8, my god, can you believe they can have access to manipulating a childs mind at that age?? Not only is it immoral on 1000 different levels, but destructive and dangerous on a developing childs mind.
Thank God they need the consent from both parents to enroll, as i will be blocking it, but the blocking of this will cost me my 12 year marriage, and my house, but this is a loss i will just have to live with knowing that this white collared cult cannot destroy my childrens lives and that they can grow and learn like any other normal child.
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I was invited to a Landmark Forum introduction recently and recognized its structure immediately. As the son of a salesman I saw in place all the elements of a high pressure sales event. The shill in the audience whose job it was to start everyone in the process of sharing; the building of a false rapport by the leader; the assumption of authority by the leader through stance and difference in height between the prospective clients and sales team; the direct hand holding manipulation when the time came to fill out the application to take the training and finally the reversion of the shill to sales person, when it became clear that I was not going to become one of the clients, in order to isolate me from the rest of the group so I wouldn’t poison the sales.
I watched all this going on in military precision. Nothing was spontaneous, all choreographed. I found a contradiction, though, in this scenario. Which is this: if a business has a very effective sales model, i.e. word of mouth testimonials, to do business why resort to high pressure sales whose function is to create an intense desire in the potential clients to possess the product even though they might not really need or want it. The answer , as the Occam’s razor principle teaches us, is very simple. That is to close the sale.
This started me on an interesting research into Landmark Education and it’s progenitor est. The first thing I did, at it’s heart was similar to what they do in the Landmark training. That was to strip away any preconceived notions (Landmark terminology: Rackets) about the subject in order to clearly see the relevant facts. The way I do this is by a process of critical thinking. The way Landmark does this is by artificially inducing a traumatic event to clear away the same.
What I searched for was verifiable facts. I had to set aside all the testimonials of satisfied customers and angry complainants as these could not be tested. Sadly the claims by Landmark of 90% + customer satisfaction also had to be set aside because Landmark refuses to release source data to support their claims.
What I was left with were the cases which implicated Landmark or its proponents in various misdeeds, two independent studies; one on the effectiveness of the training in a group of about 400 prisoners and a statistical government assessment of the psychological effects on subjects of LGAT’s (which included Landmark) a description of Landmarks techniques and philosophies, the six page contract which all clients must sign to attend the Forum and a transcript of the questions Landmark asks to ostensibly filter out those who shouldn’t take the training.
There have been a handful of cases were attendees post seminar committed suicide or murder or other crimes. There are quite a few more were graduates used illegal coercive tactics in the workplace with punishment, i.e. demotion or firing, as a result if you did not submit to the training.
The government study on LGAT’s concluded that 10 to 15% of attendees required psychological treatment up to and including hospitalization post training.
The study of the effects on the prisoners was more comprehensive. Extensive psychological testing was done pre and post training. the result was that although there was a placebo effect from the training there was no change in the personalities of the subjects. In other words although they felt better about themselves they remained criminals with the same pathologies.
The technique used by Landmark is to induce an artificial stripping away of context by use of traumatic manipulation. There by allowing the subject to view himself with more clarity. Some attendees spontaneously do this through a sympathetic response to watching others go through it. The leaders then teach a few life tools to handle some situations and give them a set of philosophies and limited language set with which to assess the world. Landmarks stated philosophies are solipsistic in nature or “the only reality is the one which I create”. The danger of solipsism is that if you believe only in your own personal reality nothing and no one else matters thus separating oneself from the world. Wonderful for the ascetic living on a mountain top but impractical in the everyday.
The use of a limited language set is useful within the context of the Landmark group but lends itself to trying to fit the rest of the world in a set of narrow definitions. The resulting reductionism and the previously described solipsism tend to isolate the person from the world creating an us against them mentality.
The contract they have you sign is nothing more than a waiver of responsibility. It does nothing to filter out those who should not take the training. It merely makes you state that you are not undergoing psychological treatment. The verbal questions are basically the same thing, a statement that you are not undergoing psych treatment. Coupled with the hard sales to create an artificial desire to get “it” the filtering is largely ineffective. Also, it does nothing to filter out those who by nature are immoral and as the prisoner study shows is ineffective in creating any meaningful “transformations”.
My opinion is that Landmark as a group is like most other large corporations, cold and indifferent to the suffering of the world at large in it’s pursuit of the almighty dollar. It differs from many others in that it causes a great deal of suffering too.
We in America have history of hucksterism and snake oil salesmen and we export it to the world now. It is shameful.
On a personal note my friend who took me to the Landmark introduction is still my friend but since she will not engage in meaningful dialog about Landmark only falling back on the simplistic “you have to experience it to get it” statement I can only hope and pray that someday she might see more clearly.
Ross, hang tough you are doing the right thing in protecting your family.
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Doug and Ross are right on! Kurt, you are so much better off now that you have run from this shit. Landmark makes people crazy, I mean certifiably crazy. I have some co-workers that have taken this training and have created a lot of problems within the department. They become aggressive, overtly hostile and now believe that they are better than everyone else. Your ideas no longer matter and if you challenge them you become ‘inappropriate’. They have burned almost every bridge and relationship they have ever had. Recently one Landmarker ‘fired’ everyone on their team and deemed them all not good enough. Crazy shit. Immediately hired a fellow Landmark graduate. HR is involved in all kinds of allegations and investigations. These people dig up shit from 20 years ago and now decide they need to be dealt with. WTF? You can’t work with that going on. At this point I could care less if I ever speak to this person again let alone work with them. I would warn everyone not to work for this crazy mother fucker BUT I am sure that would end up in another conversation with my good friends in Employee Relations.
Landmark Training = “Some Crazy Mind Fucking Shit!”
Dick
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Well shit…I attended a “graduation” a couple months ago. I felt so pressured to sign up for this course, I could see the people that had refused the course in the large crowd. They were isolated almost and the harrassment from everyone asking them OVER AND OVER “when do you plan in attending? I can help you sign up right now!” So, I signed up for one and figured I could figure a way out of it before May (the “GRADUATION” was in February). I feel like an even bigger ass because I work with the lady that invited me to her “graduation” (sales pitch for sure, I don’t think she was graduating, I am pretty sure she did the course a long time before this), she convinced me to start making payments for my class and even showed up at my house to collect a payment. I ended up paying $115 so far and figured maybe I can make payments and check it out, maybe it is an experience I might need. I just have never had the right feeling about any of it, it all seems so suspicious and creepy. The moment the speaker started talking at the “graduation” I knew something was not right. Why are they not even talking about graduating? Why are they talking to a group of people that are supposedly graduating about the forum like they are there to sign up? AREN’T THEY GRADUATING, they don’t need to kn0w when the next classes are, they have already taken them right, Advanced Course and all??? Why would they need to be told all about a course that they just took like they don’t know what it is??
Unless they can pay my bills, feed my children and buy me a new car to make it to the damn course, I cannot attend their scheme. I cannot afford another 300 dollars when I can’t even pay for my childrens school pictures. And now I am reading about how other people are just as freaked out about this fucking shit. I need the money back and really feel like just sucking it up and forgetting about it just to not have to deal with fucked up people on the phone and the lady I work with. They better not even think about trying to speak to my children, I was furious when I read what Ross has had to deal with.
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A very hot and semi-smart babe once invited me to one of these courses. I detailed it here:
http://www.misanthropytoday.com/landmark-education-bww-quixtar-pyramid-schemes-nigerians-mll-why-me/
I think that smart people do get roped into this kind of thing because we are always looking for answers. But answers don’t come in a few day long courses.. if you want real answers they take time and work and experiences.
I’m often plagued with the “i’m too good/cool for everything” mentality which is a lousy way to go through life, but I think not being a joiner is important because it keeps you out of shit like this.
Oh and yeah, the hot chick in the pictures is a total freak now. Thanks Landmark!
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if someone has something to teach about life, i’m there. any success i’ve ever had is largely due to my humility in the face of my teachers. if that means i get some weirdos trying to take advantage of me now and then, so be it. i will pay any price for wisdom.
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Well, I’ve “graduated” from the Forum. I took it because my girlfriend insisted, and assured me we would have a better relationship. Nope. She waited til I paid for the Advanced course “let’s take it together”, then broke up with me.
I’m going to try to get a refund, but we’ll see. Landmark is way too mind-controlling for me.
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Well, stopped in at the offices, got the refund without too much hassle. There were the moments of “don’t you want enroll yourself in becoming?” and ” Don’t you want to start a new way of being?” I simply stated that yes, I did get valuable insights from the forum, but it’s as far as I want to go, and I would love to be able to recommend it to people…” (leaving unsaid that if I don’t get my money back, I’ll trash them).
I really did get some valuable insights from the Forum; I’m just put off by the high pressure sales and the sublte (or not) mind control. For instance, I took the first day of the included after-forum seminar, and we all had to sign a contract of commitments and promises. I asked if there was any fiscal responsibility attached, and was told no, there’s only your integrity at risk. We were also told if we signed, then we could not back out of the seminar… we were committed for the whole 10 weeks. I asked what if I just don’t come? The leader said that wasn’t an option. If I couldn’t make a class, I would have to call, and if the leader didn’t feel it is a valid option, then i would still have to come. Riiiiiggght.
And if Landmark is so great, as my ex-girlfriend says who has been involved for 10 years says, then why does she stay in a job she hates, wonder where she’s going to live, can’t have a stable relationship, missed her chance to have kids, and is flat broke all the time? I’m not seeing a whole lot of living the life of example from any of the graduates I’ve met.
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My friend who I mentioned in my previous post pretty much fits the description I keep hearing about graduates. Lousy at anything but superficial relationships, financially a mess, listlessly floating through life without direction and worst of all blindly ignoring the pain and suffering of those who have been hurt by the Landmark organization.
I dug a little deeper and found out that the reason for this is that these people have accepted as truth the philosophy of the founder Werner Erhard (est) which was cobbled together from a lot of German philosophers. Nietzsche and Heidegger being two of the major ones. He borrowed heavily from Heidegger’s book “Being and Time” which Heidegger himself admitted he tailored to support the the cause of the Nazi party in Germany in order to keep his job in the University there in the thirties before WWII.
The result is that these people if not openly narcissistic tend to be deluded into thinking that narcissism is a virtue. Their views on personal responsibility are metaphysical in nature in that the individual is responsible for everything that happens to them whether it’s being hit by an asteroid or being an innocent bystander in a hold up. This is very handy for avoiding responsibility for your own actions which Landmark is notorious for doing on a corporate level.
I have no answer for those that have fallen into this trap. Just this for the rest. Protect your families and friends from this dangerous scam. Educate yourselves and anyone who’ll listen.
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Hi, please remove my name and replace it with Anon, I’m starting to get harrased by LEC.
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sure anon, though that’s pretty deep because you only left your first name.
they left a message on my voicemail a few months after i wrote this post… i found it weird that they would chance upon my site like that. they have eyes everywhere.
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Amazing. I called and I got the refund back for the advanced course.
I said what I wanted. She went through a few things with me and I continued to state my case that I request a full refund and voila.
She has returned it to my credit card. Hallelujah! Thanks guys!
You’re awesome!
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Wow this is very interesting. Its just a course, cant we make up our minds about whether we want to continue and do advanced LM just like we make up our minds for anything else in life?
Also, its not very much money to pay for a course, and i used to spend that money on things i really didn’t need. Its like as soon as something confronts us, we find anyway to attack it.
I think some people who’ve written on this page that are so anti landmark are really spending so much energy being right about this that they are willing to break up relationships over a COURSE? Geez, some people stick it out after infidelity.
We are a crazy lot sometimes, but at the end of the day, just take a deep breath. Landmark people aren’t going to hurt you, and you can make the choice to be involved as much or as little, just as anything else in life.
And for what its worth, I got a lot from landmark education, because now I don’t spend my life making excuses. And this will stay with me forever.
So im happy to be called a landmarkian or whatever term you used, cause i won’t take it personally for too long
Love the posts btw
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Well guys, I’ve loved reading your posts and agree wholeheartedly with everything stated. however, I’ve formed the opinion that most of the anti-landmark commentaries that insist that the course be avoided altogether would have far more substance had the person actually have attended the course.
In fact, there seems to be a fear from you guys that you too will succumb. This is not the case. You are wise people with superior minds to the victims you refer to. If you attended the course, all that would happen is that you would not emerge with as much much satisfaction from your experience as the typical landmarkians you’ve described.
I am a big fan of the material presented … or the ‘technology’ as it’s termed by LM. In fact i find the terminology they use to be quite amusing. All the robotic communication actually is useful jargon when used in conversation with a fellow graduate but it seems to alienate people who are not familiar with it.
The organisation, however, is everything you have all discribed. It is unethical and manipulative of people and yes, i will concede that it produces ‘victims’ and that people whom i’d classify this way represent a disturbing percentage of the ‘graduates’. These victims are not just people who are so affected by the course that they estrange themselves from their peers, some are so dedicated to the cause that they attempt to enrol everyone around them in the cause, they get sucked into making themselves available as ‘volunteers’ (who are subjected to extreme discipline in an ‘unpaid’ capacity) some even do course after course and shell out lots of money in the misguided hope that they will eventually become LM leaders themselves. I’m mystified as to how this works, but it’s secretive and there is no way of infiltrating the organisation merely for the purpose of gaining such inside knowledge without being weeded out.
Unfortunately, a superior mind would be annoyed at the constant referral to ‘enrolling’ which is the recruitment of friends, relatives or associates to the course. A very large portion of the time spent at the Landmark Forum will be dedicated to this, I’d estimate it’s as much as 20% of each day. The final evening of the course, the Tuesday night’ is purely about this and also doubles as the major sales pitch for the Advanced Course.
At this juncture, I will state which part of LM I hate the most; At the commencement of the course we are instructed not to make any major decisions concerning our marriages, jobs, finances, etc. The reasoning behind this is LM’s recognition that we are probably not of sound mind as we emerge from such an enlightening process. (LOL) It is not stated this way, but the story told reflects upon all of us being at different stages of the ‘rollercoaster ride’ and that just because one of us has ‘popped’ or has got it, we shouldn’t feel disappointed that we’re not there yet. But come Tuesday night, everyone has got it. We’re all loved up, hugging each other, sharing stories of profound ‘breakthroughs’ etc. (get the idea) and whilst LM has previously discouraged us from making big decisions whilst we’re in this state, they have no problem with selling us the Advanced Course an receiving payment of some $850.
However, I believe the course is very useful and i am currently enrolling my two friends and myself in an upcoming LM Forum. However, I have instructed my two guests that we will not be attending the Tuesday night. We all will have flown from interstate to attend the course and whilst LM will insist that our relatives should travel to witness our graduation, we won’t be part of that. What we will do is just lie to LM and let them work out that we actually didn’t agree to do as we were told. And as for all the times in the course that LM reverts back to the ‘enrollment coaching’, well; my friends and i will probably switch off and think of more useful things such as, which pubs we will be drinking in when the course is over, or which of the fellow course participants we’d like to bone. One thing I will mention about LM, every course i’ve done always has gorgeous women in it and with our ‘barriers down’, it’s a great opportunity to approach them.
To the readers of this post who may recall the part of their upbringing where they learned that honesty extends to everyone in the whole wide world, with the exception of banks, insurance companies and the taxation department, you should add Landmark Education to this list. LM will expect you to agree with their rules and to comply with their requests and will demand that you have the integrity to do so. This is how they corner you into working towards their objectives at expense to yourself. Well guys, it is OK to lie to them. it is OK to tell them that you have done your homework and made that phone call at 11o’clock at night. It is OK to pretend that you are enthusiastic about selling the course to your friends when you actually don’t because you are embarrassed. It is OK because they will lie to you and they will treat you in a manner that totally ignores the fat that you are a paying customer with every right to have your expectations met.
I wholeheartedly recommend to you all that you do this course. The benefits to you will outweigh that you will probably have gone against your ideology in participating, but if you are an intelligent person you won’t get sucked in and become a victim. Sorry to be dispelling the myth, but it really isn’t all that powerful.
One final note, I would be far more comfortable if LM and similar organisations had a separate and detached complaints department. I had to obtain a refund a while ago (which is another story) – I explained that I was not prepared to discuss the matter with them because i felt that it was detracting from my ‘experience’ to be quarrelling with them and that i would be handing the matter over to a third party who would negotiate with them on my behalf. Once they got wind of me suggesting I’d be getting a lawyer, they rolled immediately. ……. they do have long memories and eyes everywhere and at this juncture, I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m jot allowed to do the course again with my friends.
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I’m curious Adronikus, if you believe that Landmark operates in less than a savory manner in their recruiting methods what makes you believe they will present their material in an open and honest manner?
You might want to check out this website before you attend.
http://www.visionandpsychosis.net/
Good luck to you and your friends
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“my friends and i will probably switch off and think of more useful things such as, which pubs we will be drinking in when the course is over, or which of the fellow course participants we’d like to bone. One thing I will mention about LM, every course i’ve done always has gorgeous women in it and with our ‘barriers down’, it’s a great opportunity to approach them.”
this is the single most important thing anyone has written in the comments.
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doug i’m reading that site and it’s kind of interesting… but the more i read, the more i can’t help but think of http://www.timecube.com/
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Hi Kurt, I was looking at that time cube site and it is a lot to digest at one time. I will have to revisit it a bit more but it seems to me to be a mixture of post WWI nihilism, part post WWII Heideggerian anti-industrialism with a dash of Charles Mansons the blacks will slaughter the whites prophecy of doom. Granted I don’t quite understand his time cube theory but he definitely is passionate about it.
My point to Adronikus was simply that the potential for psychological injury is there and that just because the teaching and the possibility to pick up women exists it doesn’t mean that you can pick unwanted side effects also.
A good site for the Self help discussion is Steve Salerno’s SHAMblog
http://shambook.blogspot.com/2010/06/trouble-with-self-help-part-1.html
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Oops That should read
“can’t” pick unwanted side effects also.
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come on guys, you know I referred to picking up women for comedy reasons….
Doug, why are you so afraid my man??? Unwanted side affects? Material that’s not presented in an open and honest manner?
My point is this; Do the god damn course and then criticise it all you want.
Until you’ve done it, you merely think you know what you’re talking about. All you’re doing is just collating other people’s opinions, which are of varying degrees of accuracy and/or bias.
For your information, the material is not presented entirely honestly. The underlying theme is the relentless encouragement of participants to recruit others into the course. But it is blatant and unapologetic, there isn’t anything even slightly subliminal about it.
There were no ‘unwanted side affects’, nothing a person of your intellect wouldn’t be aware of.
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“The only way you can get the most out of the Forum is by doing all the homework. Homework tonight guys: call ten people and enrol them in the Landmark Forum.”
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anyway adronikus i don’t really think there is anything particularly malicious about the course itself, nothing really subliminal. although i guess some people are unconscious enough to not realise that “homework” is actually a clever recruiting strategy, and not really much to do with you “getting it”.
it’s the sales techniques that i would be concerned about, as i said in the original post. CIA mindfuck shit. i don’t know what they’re teaching their sales reps exactly, but i’m reasonably sure they are teaching it. and its not all fucking roses.
the other issue i have with them is their arrogance. the attitude that says “if you haven’t heard it from us, you just haven’t heard it.” the hubris to suggest that landmark forum is different and better than any other self-help products or experiences. the only true path to wisdom. remember that old chestnut: follow those who seek the truth; run from those who claim to have found it.
in every brilliant teacher i’ve had, there is a certain humility. there is a genuine desire for the student to become greater, and it exists without preconceptions – instead, it is flexible, it is peaceful and patient. in japan, they say “if a student does not excel the teacher, then the teacher is a failure.” i did not find that humility in the landmark forum.
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nicely put Kurt!
The sales reps are playing their ‘game’ and they have no respect or regard for their victims to make their own decisions. It’s hypocritical, but I maintain that still is harmless because most people don’t allow themselves to succumb to such pressure. I reckon when sales start to drop, they’ll take on a different approach, in line with the evolution selling vaccuum cleaners and Amway which are both examples of short term successful selling techniques that saturated and alienated potential customers until they had no hope at all! (if that makes sense)
I agree with your viewpoint on their arrogance “that if you didn’t hear it from us, you didn’t hear it” …. it’s very much ‘do it our way or not at all’. I overcame this by pinching about ten copies of the pamphlet they used to use at intros. I kept them at home and gave them to people whom showed an interest in my wisdom, which I openly admit to drawing partially from Landmark. If someone is interested I instruct them to bypass the whole intro scheme and just insist they sign up…. Last year I was in the room listening to my friend say to the Landmarkian “well how does get fucked sound” when she started telling him he had to do an intro first. he said, do you want to take my credit card numbers or do you want me to hang up, she continued with her spiel and he said, ‘what’s your last name? do you have the authority to block me from the course?’
Obviously i put him up to it, I also counselled him prior to doing the course. I found it most satisfying that he returned from the course saying he got heaps out of it and he was so glad he followed the approach I recommended.
So, to all you ‘resigned and cynical’ folk out there – do the course, but just don;t buy into their unethical business practices. Lie your arses off to them and the end result will be that you’ve got what you paid for and not sacrificed any further, to their benefit!
It’s been a healthy debate, I hope I haven’t offended anyone. I really don’t give a fuck about it, but i do think that people who have done the course have more credibility in this type of discussion.
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I have no plans to do the Landmark Forum, not for any reason of fear of them or their program but because I disagree with the philosophy they teach. That in itself is a whole other discussion which I won’t start here.
My point is I am willing to take Landmark at their word that a certain percentage of people will be seriously psychologically harmed by attending this event and some times it is not predictable who. I don’t ask anyone to believe me I just read this from the disclaimer on their website and it jibes pretty closely with what the people who have taken the training complained about the thing the most loudly. From what I can ascertain there is no way of being certain just who will or will not be susceptible to this kind of mental damage and Landmark does a piss poor job of keeping people out who obviously shouldn’t do it. I am not willing to play Russian roulette with my health.
No offense taken at all. You guys have put forth a great many arguments for your positions worthy of thought. This has been very interesting.
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I just wanted to add my comments.
I took the LF this past weekend and I must say it was a complete rollercoaster. While I wouldn’t call it brainwashing…there is certainly a power of suggestion methodology that takes place over the three very long and intense days.
The words and repetition they use, the language…it all has a lot of power to bring people to certain feelings/states. The long intense days leave people tired and very susceptible to influence. There is little room for critical thinking or questioning, because they “coach” very well that one doesn’t know what they are arguing about anymore and acquiesces to their new view. everything is a paradox.
With that being said, I found it to be a very profound experience. I have had some major insights that I had not previously had…and I have studied psychology all my life and know why I am the way I am. Friday was a high…while Saturday was a downer for me…because I tuned out since I knew all about my childhood. However, I was brought up again Sunday after I took some actions.
I got “sucked” into signing up for advanced course, but might back out. I was completely put off by their sales tactics throughout the course. I was offended and felt like they influence you at just the perfect moment. Come Monday I was feeling down, but that could have been lack of sleep and having to go to work Monday bright and early.
BTW I never asked anyone to come on Tues. I went alone and brought my skepticism which was addressed by some people who allowed me to have doubts.
However, I have had some pretty good changes already…so far the way I am with others. I am able to really listen, see others for who they are and not get offended so easily. I have been more patient and not as reactive when someone pisses me off.
I am already setting goals for my future that i had given up on.
I wouldn’t say LM forum is an answer. It just helped to wake me up to what I already intuitively knew. At least for me… everyone has their own experience and there is no same experience for everyone.
However, I would not advise anyone with severe mental health issues to sign up. There could be some depersonalization issues or breakdowns and I could certainly see why.
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Alexis mindfucked end of the day she was fucked by jones in a DOGGY style, nice naa,,, pls fuck me am in north india.. wanna c me, send me email.
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sure, why not.
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Yo yo yo check this ish out yo – a donky walks into a room, and says HEEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWW – yeah, so just wanted to say hi. “hi”
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My opinion on Landmark Forum:
I have just finished the Landmark Forum today. My course was a gift from 2 friends that I have. I was curious about this course and one of them finished them all and was very excited about the whole process.
In the past, I have gone through a lot of turmoil in my life and I have always resolved it on my own, through pray, readings and the fact that I lived half of my life in one of the unhappiest ex-comunist countries. So I went to the Forum to see what’s all about and also to compare with what I know and feel. I am one who reads quite plenty about: our existence, religion, philosophy, Self-Help, Motivation, New Age, Spiritism, as I want to learn and experience as much as I can about love in this life.
However, LANDMARK WAS FOR ME A DISSAPOINTMENT. BETTER SAID, I BELIEVE THAT THIS COURSE TRIES TO BRAINWASH PEOPLE AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE. I am a woman, and in my whole life I have not seen so many men crying because of the “brainwashing” statements the coaches were throwing at you. During the whole sessions, I have sit as an observer, not going to tell my stories, altough would have been interesting to hear for many.
To me what happens in the Landmark Forum, it’s something similar to what the communists used to do with their population: it’s brainwash?!!!
So, kids, parents, adults and everyone who searches to enroll to Landmark, please first control yourself to not have a definite negative impact on you. Please do that, think and feel. If you feel you can’t stand at such “Valey of Tears and Crying” don’t go?!!! If you are cool about you and can be an “impartial” observer, have money to throw out of the fence and get the pyramid richer than they are, then try it.
However, there is not all bad about their teachings, but they are presented so mixed up that if you are NOT previously aware of philosophy, psychology, religion, etc you could be burned out and suffer at the cost of your own self, soul and being.
Take care!
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hello there, its a nice day outside today, dont you think?
winter almost gone!!
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Landmark gives refunds? They told me I couldn’t get my deposit back for the AC and that I had to take it by April 2012 or I’d lose the $200 forever. Maybe I’ll end up going some day just for laughs.
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I suppose they might have told you whatever they could to get you off the phone.
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Just happened across this today as I was googling one of the best landmark lessons I’ve ever had: the three causes of upset:
1. Thwarted intention
2. Undelivered communication
3. Unfulfilled expectation
Wondering if any of these are at the base of all these complaints above?
also, someone here misrepresented the Landmark definition of “enrolling” – in Landmark speak it’s not signing someone up – “enrolling” means you are touching, moving and inspiring someone with what you have seen or experienced as part of progress made as a result of doing a course, or getting an insight.
it’s all about your own progress and nothing to do with signing people up. (if someone is inspired to do the course as a result of seeing what you got, then that’s great, but not a necessity).
What did I get out of Landmark?
* I moved home to be closer to my family (I had lived on the other side of the world from them for 13 years and no longer had any need to do that)
* I made a heap of money (after doing the Finance seminar)
* I forgave my Dad for killing himself and got that he actually really loved me – this made me a much less angry person than I’d been for years, and healed a number of friendships (the majority of those that had been going wrong)
* I got that my problems with bosses had been something to do with a problem with a teacher when I was six. Once I got that, since then I’ve had no problems with bosses.
noting also, that while Landmark isn’t a non profit, nobody has ever made money from their stake in it – all the money goes into providing new courses. So is a non-profit in everything but name.
Usually the thing that makes you want to NOT sign up is the thing that is stopping you from doing a number of other things in your life. When you find something that is confronting, what is it in you that makes that thing confronting?
just sayin
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So, are you saying that it could be a thwarted intention or undelivered communication on my behalf? Or the Landmark representative’s behalf?
What I believe the unspoken context here – and forgive me if I’m wrong – is that you’re placing all of the responsibility on the individual (me), and therefore absolving Landmark of any responsibility. Which can be a really handy way of dealing with complaints – by convincing the complainant that the complaint is their problem. This attitude seems to resonate among a lot of Landmark advocates “You take responsibility, so we don’t have to.” I hope you can see the fallacy here.
The greatest problem with the communication in this interaction, was that the Landmark representative was trying to use psychological techniques to bully me into signing up to the course. It is difficult to have a discussion person to person when one person is treating the other as an object. The precise problem with communication that is discussed in the Landmark Forum was occurring in this instance – she wasn’t listening to me, she had prejudices about who I was, and she was speaking to those prejudices instead of speaking to me.
Your final paragraph hides another key premise, a fallacy which is propagated in a lot of institutions which rely on brainwashing to continue their membership: “There is no salvation except through us.” And therefore, if I don’t sign up, it is my issue – not that I have respectfully declined. Not that I have considered my options and opined that it wasn’t the best thing for me at this point in my life, but instead that there is something wrong with me for not continuing my involvement in your organisation. I heard this same attitude when I was involved in the Cobra Group – “if you fail in the Cobra Group, you fail at life.” It’s not true. As any student of life knows, there are many ways to salvation, perhaps as many ways as there are people. I follow those who seek the truth, and run from those who claim to have found it.
To rebutt your point about Landmark not being after money – just because an institution is not after money, doesn’t mean it is not after power.
The final thing is, I would love it if just one of you Landmark advocates would acknowledge that something strange has happened here, in my conversation with a Landmark representative. Until you can do that, I’m not sure if we’re really communicating.
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Sure I found it that they make a lot of money.Fleece the people.Insult the participants.People who did the course,like the story of a fox having lost it’s tail,to avoid humiliation went and told all the other other animals to get their tails cut to look more beautiful,the participants come out and tell others join the course.I regret for losing my tail and request
people not to lose their tails.You can learn better reading Zen books without getting insulted
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I agree Kurt. Something strange did happen on the phone. Definantly sounds as if you were being pressured. And I have taken the course and benefitted greatly, but still find the way that people in the company operate to be very shady in the way they attempt to “enroll” during graduation and such. However, one thing I have come to realize is that its not Landmark itself, but the individual people who make it shady. There is so much available to people in participating in their programs, and like others have said, it is not the end all be all. This stuff isn’t exclusive and its not the only way to get the confidence I have in my life every day and the ability to deal with almost any situation. Like others have said also, its the people who are seperating themselves and making themselves superior to others using this ‘thing’. not the thing itself. I am always seeking knowledge. Love it and love life, landmark isnt the truth, shit just works, and works well!
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I spent 2 years doing landmark courses, assisting, being in the intensive sales and brainwashing/psychological manipulation and emotional rollercoaster programme that they call the “introduction leaders programme” and also in one of the other “leadership” bodies. I went deep into the place and have seen the organization from many different sides.
I can tell you that Landmark is a highly sophisticated, dangerous (and should be illegal) organization, based on a pyramid scheme structure which utilizes human being’s minds as their business and human being’s relationships and desire to do good in life as their business model. Basically, it’s exploitative.
Landmark gets people in and sells them a little bit of common sense heaped in with a lot of emotional manipulation. In fact, the high that people feel after the landmark forum or any of the other courses (what someone above referred to as ‘enlightenment’ has virtually nothing to do with what they have been taught but is a function of the psychological and emotional rollercoaster they have been on which ultimately culminates in the leader bringing you up after having spent 3 days breaking you down. The environments are also highly controlled so that your focus is almost entirely on the leader – which after 2 or 3 days is almost like hypnotism – and there’s massive repetition of ideas and concepts. There are exercises designed to break resistance and encourage the disintegration of personal boundaries. All of these things lead to highs – the problem is that they are all manipulated highs, not real natural ones. It feels great, but the problem is that most people have no idea what it is that actually has happened to have them have that experience. Unfortunately people also link the good feelings they get from landmark to it being something that’s good for them – but both drugs and alcohol induce the same kinds of feelings (in fact, neurologically landmark creates the same kind of brain behaviour as being high or drunk), yet this does not mean they are good for your health or well being.
Landmark subtley destroying one’s sense of self (notice that all landmark courses focus on what’s wrong, what’s not working, where something is missing, what’s an issue etc which is designed to have your mind search for problems and issues, including making things that were previously not an issue into issues which of course landmark will help you deal with) and substitutes their own language (which they call distinctions, and it isn’t, it is literally changing your entire life paradigm) for normal language, all of which is designed to have you move further through the landmark funnel, have you be isolated from your normal life and to get you to bring your people to landmark.
Landmark makes people believe that their life is terrible, they are terrible, and that they need landmark to be better and have this extraordinary life. The thing is, as someone who already had a pretty extraordinary life by anyone’s standards Landmark had my life go totally downhill. I have lost income, work opportunities and more frighteningly, nearly my mind. I experienced very strange altered states of being that I have never experienced before in my entire life and never wish to experience again.
I have also noticed that all of the people in landmark who have been in it for years have many problems that normal people simply do not have. A LOT of people who stay in landmark have big issues with money, with holding down jobs and relationships, with their weight and so on. And these issues seem to get worse as they do more courses. They believe that they must be “out of integrity” but never stop to think that maybe the doctor they are seeing (i.e landmark) is the same one poisoning them??
What they are doing in their is pure and utter drivel. It does not stand up to any questioning or rigorous analysis, hence why questions and analysis are discouraged and written off as a “racket” or an “act”. Good way to deflect questions. Landmark makes such extremely bold statements on its website such as that the forum causes “permanent positive shifts in the quality of your life” but how on earth can it measure that? has it done longitudinal surveys over time to measure that? Also, how can they prove that those shifts would not have happened anyway and that such shifts are in fact attributable to landmark? For example, when good things happened to me during my time in landmark, they wanted me to give them all the credit. However, I was already a successful person BEFORE Landmark and actually, those things were just as a result of previous work and opportunities and contacts. Furthermore, the so-called “independent” studies that landmark refers to in its site were produced by people and/or companies affiliated with landmark (in some instances paid for by them) so they may have been conducted independently but they certainly were not unbiased. And going further, they only interview people who actually have a positive view of landmark hence they are not getting an accurate account of how everyone fares after being involved with landmark, only those who will say nice things, who no doubt are those who really do not understand how this organization works.
landmark simply aims to destroy a person’s sense of self so that they can become a Landmark self which will then either take more courses, join landmark leadership but ultimately in the end “all roads lead to enrollment” (as they actually tell you in the advanced course!).
In some ways, what werner erhard and landmark has done (cos let’s face it, it’s just a softer version of EST and Erhard’s family are still at the helm of landmark and most of the top leaders were original EST devotees) is pure genius. It’s shockingly, tragically amazing. Created a circular closed system where people pay to get “educated” on a system that takes money, time, energy and effort out of them that they believe is helping their lives, while each further courses pushes them deeper into landmark where they become more interested in doing more courses, assisting and bringing guests and ultimately putting more money in landmark’s pocket for it. All apparently in the name of “transformation”. Amazing.
If you ready any books on network marketing or MLM, what landmark is doing is the same as any other of these organizations except that the volunteers do not get paid (instead they promise that you will get 10x more than what you put in for your life) for their time, effort, energy and people that they bring, and the product is a total dud. I really feel sorry for anyone who gets sucked in. This place should be closed down.
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Kurt Robinson Reply:
December 30th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Thanks PS, you’ve given us quite a rational account of your experiences. It doesn’t sound like you’re angry about what’s happened, but it does sound like you’ve made a clear decision.
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I am a satisfied Landmark graduate.
Would I recommend it? Yes, to some people, No to others.
Am I a devotee? No, I haven’t been involved for years.
Has it made a positive difference in my life? Yes, when I used what I learned and experienced.
And like the “satisfied landmark graduate” above, learning the 3 causes of an upset has enabled me to resolve many, many, many upsets for myself and others, has made my life more enjoyable (shorter lived upsets) and has allowed me to gift others with this knowledge.
Upsets are a part of life. Learning to resolve them in a way that is a win for myself and others has allowed me to live a blessed life.
Another of the many great lessons I got from Landmark (and also from other transformational teachers) is:
1. Enrollment is bringing another to choice to RESPONSIBLY say, Yes or No.
Notice that it is OK for them to say No. It just has to be a RESPONSIBLE No.
Sometimes someone practicing enrollment loses sight of, that a RESPONSIBLE No is OK. That’s another reason for participants to PRACTICE enrollment. By doing it and noticing if the person you are enrolling leaves the conversation feeling better, whether they said Yes or a RESPONSIBLE No, one learns how to ask for anything, effectively.
Here are some No’s that aren’t RESPONSIBLE.
I’d like to do it but (fill in the reason)
I have to think about it
I have to ask my (fill in the person)
Here are some No’s that are RESPONSIBLE.
I am choosing to say No.
I am choosing to say No, for now.
No, Thank you. Period.
So for those of you for whom Landmark is a YES, I say you are right, you will likely get great benefit from it.
For those of you for whom it is neither a Yes nor a No, I say, “you are right to be undecided, so, try it, you’ll like it or you won’t, but you’ll know what you are talking about.”
For those of you for whom it is a RESPONSIBLE NO!, I say, you are right, it’s not for you.
And one last thing I learned was, when the going gets tough, stay in the conversation.
Thank you to all of the people in this thread. This lively conversation was a lot like being in The Forum again.
Landmark says, “The Forum starts for you when you enroll.”
And remember, you are enrolled whether you are a YES or a RESPONSIBLE NO. Welcome to The Forum.
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